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| Buffing - Questions http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7953 |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:29 am ] |
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I have just finished the framing of my new 350 sq ft guitar making studio and am setting up so that I can build when ever I have a break from processing top wood and the "day" job. I want to build a buffing machine. I have already talked to a local machine shop about the saft and I will use a 1 inch shaft, 3 feet long (I think but can convinced otherwise!!??!). I am interested in a few things and am looking forward to some advice. 1) What is an ideal RPM for buffing lacquers? 2) I think I will order wheels from Caswell, what size and type is best and how many are required/best per side? 3) What compounds should a guy have for this and are the Caswell compounds up to the task? 4) Should a guy get a wheel rake at the same time, is it importatnt to clean the wheels frequently or is it better to let some compound build up? If cleaning is important, how often should it be done? 5) Any good tutorials on the buffing process anywhere? I have a small Binks spray booth and a pressure pot spray gun (HVLP off my 5hp compressor) that I am keen to use. I live a long ways from anywhere so I really want to get the finishing process done well as shipping to a pro is scary and expensive! Thanks in advance....and please offer any other thoughts on finishing that a guy should know. Shane |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:37 am ] |
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Good to see ya back in great shape bro! Thanks for asking these questions Shane, i'm working on my home made buffer right now and will follow the answers you'll get with great attention. I'm now adding the safety features on it so the folks know the Bear will be safe! 
Show us some shop pics when you get a chance! 
Serge |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:38 am ] |
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Shane, Before you commit to a 1" shaft, go check out Parma's site for other options. Also locate a supplier for the flanges and buffs that you'll want to use before taking the plunge. I made one that has a 1" shaft and wish I had gone larger and longer. Also remember that the shaft will probably have to be turned to fit the bearings. Also, one end will need to have a left-hand thread. |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:50 am ] |
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Will do Serge, Once I get it along a bit more. Thanks Don. I had discussed all of the machining issues you brought up with the machinist and will be good on that front. I had considered 1.125 or 1.25 for the shaft but people that I talked too said .75 is too thin but 1 inch should be just about right. I will follow your link...thanks Shane |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:56 am ] |
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Shane, as for the rake, I would absolutely get one. I've found that when the wheel glazes over, after a certain point, it quits "cutting". It then needs to be raked and reloaded with fresh compound. Doesn't take long. The rakes aren't expensive. But you will want to wear a mask when doing it, for a fine cloud of dust will fill your room. As it is, you will probably come out of the experience looking like you've greyed 30 years. The upside is, like Hesh said, the guitar will look so nice. Steve |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:03 am ] |
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Well not to go against some of the conventional wisdom here, everyone has something that works for htem. My buffer has a 3/4 shaft, 34 inches long, and the ends are turned down to 1/2 inch, because I have the abililty to thread 1/2 stuff. I only have right hand thread - so, I use the nylon lock nuts on each end. Two years in, and nothing has even come close to loosening up. All I have to do is take a quick look and see if the threads are still proud of the nut - all is good. If the buff has a larger hole, add a sleeve, heck tape will do. I run one 8/9 inch buffs, they have gotten smaller from use, at about 1400 RPM on a 1/5 hp motor. Thats all it takes. As hard as I can push, it wont slow down. I use the fine and glans wach menzerna compounds, and for a rake, an old hack saw blade works wonders. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:08 am ] |
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Great tips here guys, keep 'em coming! 
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| Author: | GCote [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:33 am ] |
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I have the Parma buffer and the thing works great. No vibration in the shaft. Gary |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:01 pm ] |
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This thing is rock steady, 12 inch buffs and I think I could use a few more. Particulars here: Here are the details: 1 ? inch solid shaft, 5 feet 4 inches length 1/1/4 inch threaded arbor, R and L hand thread for ends 12 inch buffs, airway or concentric sewn 1 HP, 115 Volt TEFC motor @ 1725 RPM Pulleys, drive 2 inch, driven 4 inch Final RPM approx. 860 Frame 2 inch tubular welded Motor has hinged mounting plate Belt is tensioned by gravity and motor weight Cost about $500 Jigs Tools and Techniques |
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| Author: | RCoates [ Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:19 pm ] |
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More along the lines of Tony's comments... 3/4 horse 30" shaft |
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| Author: | dberkowitz [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:33 am ] |
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Bruce, how did you decide on the shaft length and offsets for the pillow blocks? |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:12 am ] |
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I just bought the buffing arbor from SM and hooked up a 1/3hp motor to it and geared it LOW, it's probably doing 800-900 rpm. I use 10 inch buffs and Menzerna for polish (the one on the stick, medium and fine)... I'll pass along a tip that Kathy Wingert taught me, when you setup your machine leave the belt loose, the idea is that if you lean in too far the wheel will stop as opposed to burn through the finish. Also a slower speed is easier to control than a faster speed, above 1000rpm burns throughs happen in a flash. Even at 900 I burned through a headstock one time  ....
In the move up to Idaho the arbor got bent a little so I'm going to buy a new buffer, I can't weld or I'd do something like bruce has. Still have the motor so now I'm on the hunt for a new arbor... Cheers -Paul- |
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| Author: | Sprockett [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:17 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Don Williams] Shane, Before you commit to a 1" shaft, go check out Parma's site for other options. Also locate a supplier for the flanges and buffs that you'll want to use before taking the plunge. I made one that has a 1" shaft and wish I had gone larger and longer. Also remember that the shaft will probably have to be turned to fit the bearings. Also, one end will need to have a left-hand thread.[/QUOTE] Don that was joke right??? That thing is $500!!!!!!! For a piece of metal rod, some brackets and bearings, that's does not even include a motor or stand... For a little more you get get a slow speed dedicated single motor buffer from grizzly... Sorry if I want one like that I'll go down to the local fab shop and have them make me one... WOW... -Paul- |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:29 am ] |
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my buffer is an easily obtainable 1" go kart axle mounted in pillow blocks on a scrap wooden base, 1/2 hp motor. all up i think i have less than $60 in it not counting the buffs and compounds. no problems with vibration. something to rake the wheels is essential. i've used hacksaw blades and purpose made commercial rakes and both do the job. |
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| Author: | Dickey [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:54 am ] |
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[QUOTE=dberkowitz] Bruce, how did you decide on the shaft length and offsets for the pillow blocks?[/QUOTE] Frank Ford posted a couple pics of CFox Guitars buffers in his field trips section. I copied it best I could, but drew specs from others like Stew Mac and maybe Parma Diversified. I have a link to Parma in the Jigs and Tools section above. To do it again today, I'd buy it and spend the time I saved building half a guitar. Good luck to any and all who build one, it is rewarding. bd |
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| Author: | Alain Lambert [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:45 am ] |
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Here is my homemade version of the buffer. An cloth washer motor and a single buff. As simple and cheap as it gets! I do not mean to say this is better, but for a low budget and 1 instrument per year it get the job done. Buff is also home made out of old flanelle shirts. This is not the best however. An improvment I will do is to position the end "thing" (not too sure how that is called)at 90 degree so I get more cleareance It clamp to the workbench or I put it in my B&D workmate when used. When not used it goes under the bench.  |
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| Author: | crazymanmichael [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:24 am ] |
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i've seen canton flannel buffs and other sorts of flannel buffs but this is the first time i've seen "bubba" flannel buffs!!!!!! 
great idea alain |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:22 am ] |
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Very cool buffer Alain! 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:37 am ] |
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Paul, I was very serious. It is very well made, and some folks don't have the ability to make one for themselves, nor do they have a machine shop locally who can make one for them. For some folks, it's worth it to spend the money on something like this. If so, this is a very good system. Try pricing good quality 1.25" pillow blocks sometime. Besides, he was looking for information on buffing systems, so I pointed him that direction. What's wrong with that? Some folks have the time and energy to make or have something made to save a buck or two, others don't. I had one made and payed decent money to have it made, and still wish I had saved for the Parma. |
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| Author: | Alain Lambert [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:52 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]this is the first time i've seen "bubba" flannel buffs!!!!!!
[/QUOTE] Bubba ??? |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:29 pm ] |
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Buffing is a serious part of finishing. I am making one myself as I am a machinist. You can find most parts off the rack at places like MSC or WW Grainger. The bearing assembly are often called pillow blocks. THe link below has the buffing pads. I am making mine with a variable speed , just a few different stacked pullies. Speed is critical as you can over speed and burn off the lacquer. Also most of us have at one time or other joined the olympic guitar tossing team. I bounced one off the machine , the wall and it came to rest at my feet . The side was split from the tail to the neck . just like the repair I had done on the other side of it. I at least had pracitce with this repair. I have plans for a carpet "catcher" that will handle that next time if I need it. I do like a heavy shaft abd 1/2 is a little light for anythign long. My shaft is 1 1/4 . No Pix yet . Isn't it fun to make your own stuff? http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/index.html |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:20 am ] |
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I remember when I was a kid my grandfather made a tablesaw from scratch, He made his pillow blocks from two pieces of hardwood with a hole bored through them. He then used leather(well oiled) for the bearing surfaces. He was still using it when I went into the navy. Another really interesting feature was the sliding table. Some of us enjoy building tools for the same reason that we enjoy building guitars. For others it is a waste of time that could be spent building guitars. I'm somewhere in between.I guess that old saw ended up in someones burn pile. Al |
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| Author: | npalen [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:43 pm ] |
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Alain--Seeing your picture reminded me of one of my fantasies regarding the "ideal" buffing wheel setup. It would consist of (in MY mind anyway) two buffing wheels running adjacent to each other but at about 20 or 30 degress included angle The drive would have to be some kind of small ring and pinion that would fit between the two buffs with the pinion shaft protruding out the backside of this affair. Each buffing wheel would be mounted on a recessed hub sort of like a hollow center face grinding wheel. The logic(?) behind this madness is that the wheel would be open all the way around each side with no shaft or retaining nut to bump into. Pipe dream? Probably, but sure would be nice to use. Nelson |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:03 pm ] |
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Nelson, your idea of a buffer is really interesting! I'd love to see even a drawing of that, sounds like the guitar would be better served! John and Al, i agree with you on building stuff ourselves, i'm really proud of everything i built up to now but my drum sander is one of my favorites, i still contemplate the idea of building a huge bandsaw one day if my bud Phil Marino still wants to share what he's got on this subject! Phil, anytime you wanna share, i'm ready to save to my hard drive! As Phil said, and i had the same thought when we met at BobC, one nice thing about building your power tools is that when they break, you know how to repair them! |
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